Denon AVR X7200W / 7200WA - proç 13.2 sorties - 9 amplis -

[Argail]

Bonjour,

Est-il toujours judicieux de prendre un 4520 si je ne suis pas équipé en 4k (en remplacement d'un 2313) ? Le prix va tout de même du simple au double. Point de vue musicalité est-ce que le 7200w est supérieur? Le jour ou je changerai pour la 4k même le 7200a sera obsolète depuis longtemps:) Un dongle google chromecast sera un bon palliatif pour la connectivité réseau qu'offre le 7200w.

Il me faut quelque chose d'un peu "qualitatif" et "costaud" pour du 3.1 (kef xq30 et xq50). Je ne sais pas faire une calibration, il me faut donc quelque chose d'automatique, ce que les receiver "audiophiles" n'ont pas (il y a bien les futures anthem mais pas distribué en Suisse alors les prix sont prohibitifs).

[Callahan]

Bonsoir ,

Pas grand monde ici , dommage car cet ampli est excellent.

De plus, je me régale avec l'atmos et le dts:x .

[peperounet]

Bonsoir.
Quelles différences peut on entendre entre le Traitement Surround de l'Atmos et l'équivalent du DTS X
Merci

[jbeau]

Justement CALLAHAN donne nous de l,information sur cette machine ,probablement a cause du prix ,car j,ai regardé au complet le manuel du propriétaire et ca me semble tres biens et moi aussi j,aimerais avoir de l,information de la différence avec le dolby atmos et le dts-x et aussi le dolby surround et le neural-x.

[Callahan]

J'ai acheté l'ampli à vindermere ,celui en vente sur le forum .

Pour le moment , j'ai sanglé 2 enceintes au dessus de moi sur une poutre juste pour tests. Étant satisfait du rendu , j'ai acheté du câble d'enceinte afin d'essayer la configuration préconisé par Dts .Je mettrai en place la disposition des enceintes ce week end.

Donc , je ferrai un Cr des écoutes Atmos Dts:x ce week end.



Edit = Hugo S

A l'avenir quand il y a une telle citation, merci de faire figurer le lien à l'exemple de la modif faite ici (copyright...)


Nalleh sur Avs a fait part de son ressenti :

Not sure if this is the correct thread, but what-a-heck, since DTS:X just got released, why not.

PS: this is a long one!!

First impressions DTS Neural:X upmixer compared to "the other two".

So i sat down yesterday to get to know the new upmixer from DTS. Setup as follows:
Denon AVR 7200W updated with Auro 3D and DTS:X, with 7.1.4 FH+TM.
Audyssey on, DEQ off.
So DSU and Neural:X had 7.1.4, Auromatic 7.1.2(9.1).
I also moved my seat to the center/sweetspot, as the normal arrangement is two recliners beside each other.

I listened to various music in 2.0 PCM, or stereo(CD's), and played the same clips over and over in sequence: stereo, DSU, Neural:X and last Auromatic.
Before i start, i want to say i am no expert, and this may be simplified, but i am just trying to explain what i hear, and the differences.

Stereo.
This is the benchmark i compare the others to. Listening in stereo, what comes to mind is dry. No ambiance, echoes or traces of processing, other than what is in the track. And as i would call it: Front-centric. Regular stereo is something everybody is familiar with, so no need to elaborate.

DSU.
This mode moves a lot of sounds and instrument out in the room, while keeping voices/dialog front and center. Guitars, piono, violins, etc are moved to all the surrounds. I would call DSU Surround-centric. It opens up the room and makes you the centerpiece.

Neural:X.
This behaves a lot like DSU, in that it moves sound out into the room. However there are two noticable diffeences. While DSU puts instrument in the surrounds, Neural:X puts them even further back, towards the surround back. In that regard i would call it Surround-back-centric.
Not only that, but it also bleed the vocals/voices/dialog to the rear! WHEN it works, i puts vocals almost in your head!, but otherwise it makes it kind of echo-ish. Very strange behaviour.

Sidenote. Earlier upmixer often had a seperate setting for music. The two above only have one setting only.

Auromatic.
No surprise, this sounds most like the original stereo sound field, and as such, are also Front-centric. However it manages to sound wider, bigger, more air, more relaxed. Like stereo on stereoids! Easy noticable and very pleasant.

Sidenote: Auromatic was the only one who managed to keep Q-sounds effects! It actually widened the sweet spot for them, as the effects actually came from the surrounds.
Both the others "destroyed" all Q-Sound and placed them smack in the fronts(LR).

I will not declare a winner here, first of all because i simply don't listen that much to music, and secondly because i sit off-axis normally, so that rules out stereo(and Auromatic). You deside.

Movies.
Ok, it order to compare all three, without TOO much work, i change setup a bit.
Audussey off.
Changed amp assign to 7.1.4 with FH+RH+VOG. Adjusted RH and VOG level and distance manually. And switched BD player from bitstream to PCM. This way i could compare all three with the same source, and same settings. And i listened to the same clips over and over in Multi ch 5.1/7.1, DSU, AUROMATIC and Neural:X.
So DSU and Neural:X in 7.1.4, while Auromatic in 10.1.
I watched clips from Interstellar, Into the storm, Clovefield, Lone Survior, TAOE and Maze runner, and som more.

Multi ch 5.1/7.1.
It has been a long time since i watched a movie without upmixers, so this was actually fun! Even though i have ear level surrounds, there were SOME sense of "height". All sound tracks sounded great, but not quite what we are used to these days.

DSU.
5.1/7.1 tracks have more for the upmixers to work with than 2.0, and DSU opens it up and brings height into the picture. VERY noticable difference from just 5.1/7.1, and it really adds to the immersive soundfield.

Auromatic.
Well, i know i am getting flack for this, and i don't know how they do it, but often Auromatic sound better than DSU. It is quite remarkable that it is so much like DSU, but somehow manages to open it up even more, more distance, adds depth, sounds more real. After DSU, my jaw dropped a bit when Auromatic was up.
The drop scene in Lone survivor, wormhole scene in Interstellar, it was like DSU turned up a notch.

Neural:X.
I saved this one for last I expected this to be pretty much like DSU in that they work most similar. They have similarities, but boy did my jaw drop to the floor on this one! The intro scene in Into the storm, so much more pronounced thunder from above! Scary actually. Drop scene from Lone Survivor: the helicopters REALLY was above you. Subway scenes in Cloverfield: Neural:X was the ONLY one who placed the explosions from above.
Auromatic and Neural:X have in common that they sound natural and are more seamless in pannings from ear level to height.

Funny note: in the drop scene in Lone survivor, there is a short 5 second part where all the helicopters fly low on the screen trough a walley. ALL THREE upmixers placed these sounds correct, in the ear level fronts, and NOT in the heights! Quite impressed by that, since the whole scene is helicopters.

Ok, in my humble opinion, on a scale from 1 to 10, i would rank them as follows:

Multi ch 5.1/7.1 = 5 points
DSU = 8.5 points
Auromatic = 9 points
Neural:X = 9.7 points

End note: this is neither a correct test or a blindtest, but the easiest way to compare all three. I was able to use the same source, and one shared setup, and all three had the same conditions. However, as this is a shared setup, it is probably not optimal for none of them. I feel a TF+TR Atmos setup, maybe the same for DTS:X and a proper surround height Auro 3D setup would be best. And also calibrate those setups properly. But that will take more time. I can do that, my setup can handle that, but DTS:X actually put a monkey wrench in my plans, regarding total setup. So i have to rethink an regroup to get the best compromise.

What i can say, is that such a shared setup works!! I was VERY impressed with how good all formats sounded, espesially since DSU and Neural:X only had heights, not tops/ceiling. Neural:X DEFINITELY WORKS with heights only! And it was so much fun to switch instantly between all formats.

Hope this wasn't too much "Norwenglish", and just ask if any questions .

[Hugo S]

Bonjour,

Un retour post màj DTS:X sur denon 7200WA :

I've done more listening with Neural:X. This was with my 7.1.4 layout with TF+TR assigned as FH+RH, after a full Audyssey calibration (remember I had stopped after 3 positions for my initial testing). I did the full calibration just after I upgraded to Auro 3D yesterday. This time, I have enabled my arrays, so FH+TF is an array, and TR+RH another. The difference is subtle, the arrays bring a bit more back to front separation between my two pairs of heights (TF+TR are a bit too close to each other but I can't change it), at the expense of a bit of precision (but not much). Worth the compromise in my room.

I watched (again) Lone Survivor in full (had watched it with DSU a few months ago).
Really liked what Neural:X does. I also re-watched chapter 2 in DSU right after that, and it's a close call. Slight preference for Neural:X, but it's a pure matter of taste. It makes the heights slightly more active, so some might prefer the very slightly more subtle approach of DSU with this title. Certainly nothing against Neural:X I could notice.

I then watched the beach landing section of Edge of Tomorrow (I had also watched it a few times with DSU) and I loved what Neural:X did. Again, more use of the heights, slightly more bass, more grunt if that makes any sense. Very impressed. Again, it's a subjective preference, but for that title again I preferred Neural:X.

I tried Auromatic for fun, and unsurprisingly it did worse than either DSU or Neural:X. A bit anemic and lacking precision. I only like Auromatic with a few select movies, and it's never my first choice for movies. I love if for music, and it's always my first upmixer for 2ch stereo and multi-ch music when I feel like upmixing these.

Finally I watched some of Birdman, which is one of my favorite soundtracks of the last couple of years. Not much special effects and explosions there, but I watched the film the first time with DSU and absolutely loved the mix. Incredibly immersive and precise, with a fantastic music track. Every single time the Skype call rings, I half get up to try to answer/shut off my computer, then I realise it's in the film... The first time, it made me laugh, but the fact that it still gets me when I know it says something about how clear the soundtrack is (or how thick I am).

Anyway, I wanted to see how each upmixer would handle the voice of Birdman. With DSU, it came slightly from the heights, which gave it a very nice internal/supernatural effect. That's the way it was the first time I heard it, so for me of course that's the right way as it makes sense to move it up, but it's very subjective. With Neural:X, there was nothing from the voice coming from the heights. Zero. with Auro 3D, it was fun because it came partially from the VOG, which added to the actual VOG effect. Overall, for Birdman, I preferred (very slightly again) DSU, because with that kind of delicate mix it strikes the right balance. Great ambiance, super precise steering. The heights are used to create even more immersion, but not too much. I totally understand Neural:X decision to keep the Birdman voice in the front at ear level, as it's likely to be correct 99% of the time, but in this instance it took something away from my initial Birdman experience. Again, personal preference. I know many people hated this movie (I personally love it, it's one of my favorite recent movies) but it's a good way to look at the way the various upmixers approach a more subtle soundtrack, especially voice and music.

I mostly wanted to assess if I'd miss DSU when playing DTS:HD tracks (about 80% of my bluray collection), and the answer is no, I won't miss DSU. It might even be the other way round, I might want to switch to LPCM to be able to apply Neural:X to some Dolby TrueHD tracks. If I had to, I'll be very happy sticking to bitstream 99% of the time and play DSU with Dolby and Neural:X with DTS tracks and be able to play Atmos and DTS:X as well. There is very little between the two upmixers, and even if I couldn't switch I'd be happy with either. If there is anything between the two, IMHO it's a matter of preference, not performance.

I have a feeling that DSU might be a bit more conservative, so might take less risks of being wrong, while Neural:X goes a bit wilder, which makes it more visceral/impressive, but it might go slightly overboard on occasion. Very slightly, nothing that would jump on anyone not paying a lot of attention.

Overall, neural:X is a fine addition to my upmixer collection, and I haven't yet found a situation where I thought it did wrong. Even the Birdman example isn't wrong, it's just different.

I find DTS:X and Neural:X very impressive. Very, very happy with the upgrade.

We are incredibly lucky to have this level of performance at home, especially given the price of the X7200WA, which is a bargain compared to the various high end processors above it. Sure, we can worry and complain about minor issues, but the glass is almost full, so I'd rather concentrate on that bit. The choices we have now between Atmos, DTS:X, Auro 3D, DSU, Neural:X and Auromatic is amazing. I'm a happy camper.

Hugo

[Hugo S]

Bonjour,

Pour tous ceux intéressés par la reproduction du Dolby Atmos ou Dolby Surround, voire du DTS:X ou Neural X, voire d' Auro, ceci en contexte Home-Cinema, j'ai ouvert un sujet dédié, afin d'y regrouper les échanges sur ce/ces sujets :

vers-l-ultra-hd/en-hc-la-reproduction-dolby-atmos-dsu-dts-x-neural-x-auro-t30067802.html

Hugo

[Hugo S]

Bonjour,

Possible retour à niveau FW ante màj DTS:X + impact :

For those interested, it is possible to revert to an older firmware version (I just finished doing it as a troubleshooting step in my ongoing DTS:X hiss saga). The trick is to download the firmware version you'd like to install, copy it to a USB drive, then, instead of powering up the receiver using the ON/STANDBY button while holding down STATUS and OPTION, you plug the receiver in while holding down STATUS and OPTION. This forces the receiver to skip the version check and go straight to updating to whatever is on your USB stick.

So, if you're fed up with DTS:X and want DTS Neo:X back plus the ability to use DSU with DTS tracks, you can revert to the previous firmware version.

Here's a link (lien ) to a ZIP file of the previous firmware version (it's about 29MB); you'll need to unzip this file and then copy the "firmwares" folder to a FAT16/32-formatted USB drive. All the instructions are on the PDF you'll find when you unzip the file; you'll just need to remember to power the receiver on by plugging it in instead of using the ON/STANDBY button.

Have fun!

+

First of all many thanks here.

Then in this reverting process, do you know if one also loses the HDMI 2.0a HDR compatibility which is part of the DTS:X update?

Hugo

+

I assume it does. It appears to be a complete firmware regression; i.e. every DSP and FPGA that got upgraded during the DTS:X update gets reprogrammed with the older firmware.

Merci.

H.

H.

[Hugo S]

Bonjour,

Pour info démo Dolby Atmos_Trinnov_HCFR :

bons-plans-general/exclu-demo-dolby-atmos-trinnov-hcfr-le-2-juin-paris-t30073392.html

Hugo

[guss 33]

bonjour

juste un mot pour dire que je regrette de ne pas avoir acheté le x7200 w et par la meme occasion tordre le cou aux idées toutes faites , je m explique : en avril 2015 j ai acheté l ampli hifi exposure 3010s2d qui pour moi est très bon sur le plan musical ( j en suis pas a mon premier ampli hifi ) puis en juillet 2015 j ai acheté le denon x4100w qui venait remplacé un avr2311 . quand j ai acheté le 4100 je l ai testé en hifi bon sans approfondir et je dois dire que je l avais
trouvé bon . puis il y a 2 ou 3 mois j ai remis ça mais cette fois si de façon sérieuse c est a dire que dans ma tête j ai considéré le 4100 comme un ampli hifi et bien franchement ce 4100 il est vraiment excellent en hifi il n est pas meilleur que l exposure mais il est au moins aussi bon si bien que pour le côté pratique je ne me sers plus de l ampli hifi ( de toutes façon j ai trop d appareils dans mon meuble )

comme quoi il faut arrêter de dire systématiquement "un ampli hc ça ne vaut rien musicalement" dans mon cas et avec mes oreilles et avec mes enceintes c est faut et croyez moi au lieu d acheter le denon et l exposure ( ce dernier m a coûté 2100 euros )
je regrette de ne pas avoir acheter un 7200 seul qui surement doit encore mieux sonner que le 4100 et en plus j aurais fais des économies !! les boules que j ai je vous dis

[Callahan]

Il n'y a pas grand monde ici , dommage .

J'ai possédé un 7200 par rapport au 4520 , c'est le jour et la nuit . En effet , testé in situ , ce dernier est pas mauvais en préampli mais est un veau question amplification .

Le 7200 est vraiment excellent , il faut mettre beaucoup plus cher pour avoir mieux...

[road rebel]

C'est clair!









Mais alors un jour d'éclipse totale et une nuit de pleine lune!


7200:





4520:

[Shangalisto]

[road rebel]

Le remplacent c'est pour début 2017. Denon avr-x7400H?
En attendant le X7200WA aura forte concurrence de son petit frère le X6300H!!

[Hugo S]

Bonjour,

The Pandora and DD/DTS cross-mix firmware updates have been scheduled for October 21.

Ce qui fait qu'après cette màj du 21 Octobre, sur le 7200 il sera possible d'appliquer le processing Dolby Surround sur les encodages Dolby et DTS, ainsi que le DTS Neural X sur les encodages DTS et Dolby.

Alors que depuis la màj en DTS:X du 7200, le Dolby Surround n'était applicable que sur des encodages Dolby et le DTS Neural X sur ceux en DTS.

Hugo