Bon, j'ai fait un peu de message vite-fait sur ce thread.
Ici on parle uniquement de technique.
Si ca ne vous interesse pas et/ou que vous n'y comprenez rien ne participez pas.
Je continuerai a effacer les posts hors sujet.
MErci
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Pour discuter des jeux-vidéo
Post technique PS3 vs 360
- jujulolo
- Messages: 24128
- Inscription Forum: 22 Juil 2002 12:06
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"procedural texture" (pour savoir de quoi il s'agit, cliquer sur le lien
)
http://www.ddj.com/hpc-high-performance ... /201800372
L'extrait qui nous concerne plus particulierement :
DDJ: If I recall from your web site, a platform you will shortly be supporting is Playstation 3. What benefits and challenges do multi-core processors bring to the scene?
SD: Procedural techniques are demanding in terms of power, so the more power you can get, the better it is in that respect. Going multi-threaded is quite easy generally speaking for image-based work (you can divide the image in several pieces and work in parallel), and so the more cores you can get, again, the better it will be.
That said, programming the PS3's eight Synergistic Processing Units (SPUs) can be quite challenging from time to time, but there is definitely a lot to gain from the architecture, and ProFX on PS3 should run impressively fast. (We should get confirmation on that by the end of the year or so
A very cool side effect of the PS3's architecture is that ProFX should be able to continuously stream textures -- using one or two SPUs to compute the textures to be given to the GPU to be displayed, that's a huge bonus for adding rich content to games without having to stream that content from the BluRay or overloading the sole GPU of the machine.
You should see more graphically impressive games than ever with that kind of combination.
![;)](https://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
http://www.ddj.com/hpc-high-performance ... /201800372
L'extrait qui nous concerne plus particulierement :
DDJ: If I recall from your web site, a platform you will shortly be supporting is Playstation 3. What benefits and challenges do multi-core processors bring to the scene?
SD: Procedural techniques are demanding in terms of power, so the more power you can get, the better it is in that respect. Going multi-threaded is quite easy generally speaking for image-based work (you can divide the image in several pieces and work in parallel), and so the more cores you can get, again, the better it will be.
That said, programming the PS3's eight Synergistic Processing Units (SPUs) can be quite challenging from time to time, but there is definitely a lot to gain from the architecture, and ProFX on PS3 should run impressively fast. (We should get confirmation on that by the end of the year or so
![;)](https://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
A very cool side effect of the PS3's architecture is that ProFX should be able to continuously stream textures -- using one or two SPUs to compute the textures to be given to the GPU to be displayed, that's a huge bonus for adding rich content to games without having to stream that content from the BluRay or overloading the sole GPU of the machine.
You should see more graphically impressive games than ever with that kind of combination.
- Nobo
- Messages: 10615
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Nobo a écrit:"procedural texture" (pour savoir de quoi il s'agit, cliquer sur le lien)
http://www.ddj.com/hpc-high-performance ... /201800372
Excellente trouvaille Nobo ! (Je ne manquerai pas d'y jeter un coup d'oeil)
Pour ceux que l'anglais n'effraie pas, je trouve cet article sur B3D sur la Xbox360 très instructif :
http://www.beyond3d.com/content/articles/4/
Il est vraiment dommage qu'ils n'aient jamais fait le même pour la PS3 ...
Sur le sujet relevé par Nobo, il y a des unités d'exécution dédiées dans le GPU de la Xbox360 pour faire de la "procedural texture" (ou "tesselation"). On les retrouve dans le Radeon HD2900 (elles sont en fait héritées sur celui-ci des travaux faits sur le GPU de la Xbox360). En apparté, je mentionnerais que DirectX10 ne prend pas en charge ces unités... Les specs actuelles de DirectX10.1 non plus.
- oli2
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En français vulgarisé, ça donne quoi les textures procédurales?
Merci
![:o](https://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_eek.gif)
![:lol:](https://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
Merci
La configuration dans mon profil
Full HD, 3D, 4K, HDR... : OK --- Fluidité : pas OK ! C'est pour quand à la fin ???
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Fafa - Administrateur Suppléant de l'Association - Secrétaire Adjoint & Superviseur Forum Univers TV
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fafa.dudu a écrit:En français vulgarisé, ça donne quoi les textures procédurales?![]()
Merci
Dans l'article :
Il faut bien comprendre c'est qu'est une texture aujourd'hui. Une texture est un fichier bitmap plat. Chaque point de la texture (texel) est défini généralement par 4 composantes (RGBA). On mappe ces textures sur des objets 3D définis par des vertices. Par exemple un corps humain est un modèle 3D sur lequel on peut mapper "x" textures (choix de l'artiste). Il est commun aujourd'hui d'avoir des textures 1024*1024. A titre d'exemple : 8 (une composante) *4 *1024^2 =32Mb soit 4 Mo pour une texture !
Tu peux imaginer la taille en octet que représente dans une scéne 3D complète l'ensemble de la mémoire nécessaire pour stocker toutes les textures.
On a donc à un moment inventé le "mipmapping", qui est un procédé par lequel chaque fichier de texture contient sa propre définition 1024*1024, et 512*512 et 256*256, etc. (notes bien que les chiffres que je donne sont à titre d'exemple). L'idée est d'avoir beaucoup de détail quand la texture est "proche", et de moins en moins quand elle s'éloigne du point d'observation (tes yeux).
Les textures procédurées sont une évolution intéressante, puisque la définition de la texture va connaître beaucoup moins de "points fixes" et qu'on va calculer l'essentiel des texels via des fonctions mathématiques. La taille en octet de la texture va donc être considérablement réduite.
Ce n'est pas le seul avantage : l'essentiel des traitements sur les textures (effets ou application à un modèle 3D) nécessitent que celles-ci soient mises dans le cache du GPU => la bande passante mémoire est mise à profit ! Quand on sait que celle-ci est un des plus gros goulots d'étranglement du pipeline ...
Il faut noter pour mesurer l'impact de ces techniques que l'application d'une texture à un modèle 3D est un des traitements les plus consommateurs en bande passante GPU ! => Tu vois l'intérêt.
Les choix d'ATI (Radeaon 2900 et Xenon) : on va encore plus loin, car non seulement les unités hardware spécialisées que j'ai mentionnées plus tôt savent faire cela, mais en plus elles "savent" faire pour la géométrie ce que le mipmapping sait faire pour les textures ! C'est ballot mais aujourd'hui qu'un modèle 3D doive être vu à 1m de l'observateur ou à 2km, il sera toujours composé du même nombre vertices .... ATI a montré des démos technologiques du HD2900 où on voit une simulation de ces traitements sur une chaîne de montagne : plus l'observateur approche de celle-ci, plus le nombre vertices dont elle est composée augmente.
Je rappelle toutefois que DirectX10 et 10.1 n'intègrent pas d'API pour utiliser ces unités. Nvidia n'intègre rien de tel dans ses GPU aujourd'hui.
Dans le cas de la Xbox360, pas d'API non plus, et je n'ai encore entendu aucune équipe de dév. se vanter de leur utilisation future dans ses jeux (le travail est énorme, en effet).
- oli2
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oli2 a écrit:fafa.dudu a écrit:En français vulgarisé, ça donne quoi les textures procédurales?![]()
Merci
Dans l'article :
Il faut bien comprendre c'est qu'est une texture aujourd'hui. Une texture est un fichier bitmap plat. Chaque point de la texture (texel) est défini généralement par 4 composantes (RGBA). On mappe ces textures sur des objets 3D définis par des vertices. Par exemple un corps humain est un modèle 3D sur lequel on peut mapper "x" textures (choix de l'artiste). Il est commun aujourd'hui d'avoir des textures 1024*1024. A titre d'exemple : 8 (une composante) *4 *1024^2 =32Mb soit 4 Mo pour une texture !
Tu peux imaginer la taille en octet que représente dans une scéne 3D complète l'ensemble de la mémoire nécessaire pour stocker toutes les textures.
On a donc à un moment inventé le "mipmapping", qui est un procédé par lequel chaque fichier de texture contient sa propre définition 1024*1024, et 512*512 et 256*256, etc. (notes bien que les chiffres que je donne sont à titre d'exemple). L'idée est d'avoir beaucoup de détail quand la texture est "proche", et de moins en moins quand elle s'éloigne du point d'observation (tes yeux).
Jusqu'ici, je connaissais!
La suite doit être plus "chaude" à mon avis.
Les textures procédurées sont une évolution intéressante, puisque la définition de la texture va connaître beaucoup moins de "points fixes" et qu'on va calculer l'essentiel des texels via des fonctions mathématiques. La taille en octet de la texture va donc être considérablement réduite.
Il n'explique pas plus pourquoi la texture va connaitre moins de points fixes?
Ce n'est pas le seul avantage : l'essentiel des traitements sur les textures (effets ou application à un modèle 3D) nécessitent que celles-ci soient mises dans le cache du GPU => la bande passante mémoire est mise à profit ! Quand on sait que celle-ci est un des plus gros goulots d'étranglement du pipeline ...
Il faut noter pour mesurer l'impact de ces techniques que l'application d'une texture à un modèle 3D est un des traitements les plus consommateurs en bande passante GPU ! => Tu vois l'intérêt.
Les choix d'ATI (Radeaon 2900 et Xenon) : on va encore plus loin, car non seulement les unités hardware spécialisées que j'ai mentionnées plus tôt savent faire cela, mais en plus elles "savent" faire pour la géométrie ce que le mipmapping sait faire pour les textures ! C'est ballot mais aujourd'hui qu'un modèle 3D doive être vu à 1m de l'observateur ou à 2km, il sera toujours composé du même nombre vertices .... ATI a montré des démos technologiques du HD2900 où on voit une simulation de ces traitements sur une chaîne de montagne : plus l'observateur approche de celle-ci, plus le nombre vertices dont elle est composée augmente.
C'est un point intéressant qui doit pas mal soulager les calculs effectivement.
Je rappelle toutefois que DirectX10 et 10.1 n'intègrent pas d'API pour utiliser ces unités. Nvidia n'intègre rien de tel dans ses GPU aujourd'hui.
Dans le cas de la Xbox360, pas d'API non plus, et je n'ai encore entendu aucune équipe de dév. se vanter de leur utilisation future dans ses jeux (le travail est énorme, en effet).
Merci pour toutes ces infos.
![8)](https://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
Fafa, élève malgré les vacances
La configuration dans mon profil
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Fafa - Administrateur Suppléant de l'Association - Secrétaire Adjoint & Superviseur Forum Univers TV
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Dans un autre topic, CFC a posté cela :
Rendez-vous compte : sur un CPU actuel (C2D par exemple), rendre une image d'une scène simple (2-3 objets max) demande 30 secondes !
J'aimerais bien un lien car si on me pose la question aujourd'hui, je dirais qu'il est impossible de mettre en oeuvre le lancer de rayon sur les consoles actuelles... Et que même un quad SLI de GTX 8800 Ultra n'a pas la puissance nécessaire pour ce faire ...CFC a écrit:Du ray tracing en temps réel, c'est loin d'etre simpliste. C'est le seul jeu a utiliser ça d'ailleurs, je trouve ca sublime perso.
Rendez-vous compte : sur un CPU actuel (C2D par exemple), rendre une image d'une scène simple (2-3 objets max) demande 30 secondes !
- oli2
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C'est le but de la technique. Tu ne voudrais pas qu'il donne son algo, non ?fafa.dudu a écrit:Il n'explique pas plus pourquoi la texture va connaitre moins de points fixes?
- oli2
- Messages: 1038
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De toute façon, si j'avais l'algo entre les mains, je n'y comprendrais rien!
Y'a un autre artifice que je ne comprends pas, c'est l'anisotroping.
Au départ, on utilisait le mip mapping et l'antialiasing (et peut-être même le biliear) pour lisser les textures lointaines. Résultat, ells étaient toutes floues mais ne scintillaient pas (sauf sur les consoles Sony!
).
Mais bon, le flou, on s'en foutait un peu (de toute façon, maintenant, certains jeux font exprès du flou pour simuler une profondeur de champs).
Et avec l'anisotroping, les textures lointaines sont nets et pourtant ne scintillent pas...
Ca me sidère.
![:mdr:](https://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif)
Y'a un autre artifice que je ne comprends pas, c'est l'anisotroping.
Au départ, on utilisait le mip mapping et l'antialiasing (et peut-être même le biliear) pour lisser les textures lointaines. Résultat, ells étaient toutes floues mais ne scintillaient pas (sauf sur les consoles Sony!
![:mdr:](https://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif)
Mais bon, le flou, on s'en foutait un peu (de toute façon, maintenant, certains jeux font exprès du flou pour simuler une profondeur de champs).
Et avec l'anisotroping, les textures lointaines sont nets et pourtant ne scintillent pas...
![:o](https://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_eek.gif)
Ca me sidère.
La configuration dans mon profil
Full HD, 3D, 4K, HDR... : OK --- Fluidité : pas OK ! C'est pour quand à la fin ???
-
Fafa - Administrateur Suppléant de l'Association - Secrétaire Adjoint & Superviseur Forum Univers TV
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fafa.dudu a écrit:De toute façon, si j'avais l'algo entre les mains, je n'y comprendrais rien!
Y'a un autre artifice que je ne comprends pas, c'est l'anisotroping.
Au départ, on utilisait le mip mapping et l'antialiasing (et peut-être même le biliear) pour lisser les textures lointaines. Résultat, ells étaient toutes floues mais ne scintillaient pas (sauf sur les consoles Sony!).
Mais bon, le flou, on s'en foutait un peu (de toute façon, maintenant, certains jeux font exprès du flou pour simuler une profondeur de champs).
Et avec l'anisotroping, les textures lointaines sont nets et pourtant ne scintillent pas...
Ca me sidère.
Dans l'ordre :
- Le mipmapping règle le niveau de détail (cf précédemment)
- L'anti-aliasing lisse les contours (il lutte contre "l'effet d'escalier"): les algos les plus avancés peuvent même lisser les contours à l'intérieur d'une texture.
Aucun de ces 2 là ne lutte contre l'effet de flou ou de scintillement ...
Les filtres anisotropes (qui utilisent l'algo bilinéraire) ont été mis au point pour lutter contre les effets de flous dûs aux projections que subissent les textures : la texture crée par l'artiste est "faite" pour être vues par exemple à 1m, avec un angle parallèle aux yeux de l'observateur. Si je fais bouger la texture à 15m avec angle de vue à 45°, cela crée du flou. De la même manière, si le moteur du jeu modifie les vertices sur lesquels se trouve la texture, cela crée du flou : imagine un carré sur lequel sur lequel tu joints 2 sommets ...
L'effet de flou voulu dont tu parles est le motion blur, qui ne dispense en aucun cas du filtre anisotrope ...
Le coup du scintillement était dû à un bug dans les filtres anisotropes implémentés jusqu'à récemment chez Nvidia par exemple (ATI n'a jamais eu de Pb à ce niveau).
- oli2
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Un trés long article qui explique en long en large et en travers, exemples videos à l'appui, les "procedural" textures...la "4D" :
C'est uniquement faisable sur ps3 et "upscale pc" apparemment : "These 4D renders can be processed on the Xbox 360 with an average mean time of 10-12 seconds. Yes. The renders are possible, but the dynamic realization of procedural texture streaming is not. The dynamic renders with characters in the scene, with progression of life through the time continuum, are not possible with the 360 system. It would take days to produce dynamic renders on the 360 in the fullest definition of 4D graphics--this with the software already optimized for it."
http://www.psu.com/4D-Graphics--A-Reali ... 063-p0.php
C'est uniquement faisable sur ps3 et "upscale pc" apparemment : "These 4D renders can be processed on the Xbox 360 with an average mean time of 10-12 seconds. Yes. The renders are possible, but the dynamic realization of procedural texture streaming is not. The dynamic renders with characters in the scene, with progression of life through the time continuum, are not possible with the 360 system. It would take days to produce dynamic renders on the 360 in the fullest definition of 4D graphics--this with the software already optimized for it."
http://www.psu.com/4D-Graphics--A-Reali ... 063-p0.php
- Nobo
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oli2 a écrit:fafa.dudu a écrit:De toute façon, si j'avais l'algo entre les mains, je n'y comprendrais rien!
Y'a un autre artifice que je ne comprends pas, c'est l'anisotroping.
Au départ, on utilisait le mip mapping et l'antialiasing (et peut-être même le biliear) pour lisser les textures lointaines. Résultat, ells étaient toutes floues mais ne scintillaient pas (sauf sur les consoles Sony!).
Mais bon, le flou, on s'en foutait un peu (de toute façon, maintenant, certains jeux font exprès du flou pour simuler une profondeur de champs).
Et avec l'anisotroping, les textures lointaines sont nets et pourtant ne scintillent pas...
Ca me sidère.
Dans l'ordre :
- Le mipmapping règle le niveau de détail (cf précédemment)
- L'anti-aliasing lisse les contours (il lutte contre "l'effet d'escalier"): les algos les plus avancés peuvent même lisser les contours à l'intérieur d'une texture.
Je pensais que l'AA agissait également à l'intérieur des textures.
Pour le mip mapping, indirectement, ça peut limiter le flou des textures lointaines, puisque la résolution a diminué.
Aucun de ces 2 là ne lutte contre l'effet de flou ou de scintillement ...
Les filtres anisotropes (qui utilisent l'algo bilinéraire) ont été mis au point pour lutter contre les effets de flous dûs aux projections que subissent les textures : la texture crée par l'artiste est "faite" pour être vues par exemple à 1m, avec un angle parallèle aux yeux de l'observateur. Si je fais bouger la texture à 15m avec angle de vue à 45°, cela crée du flou. De la même manière, si le moteur du jeu modifie les vertices sur lesquels se trouve la texture, cela crée du flou : imagine un carré sur lequel sur lequel tu joints 2 sommets ...
L'effet de flou voulu dont tu parles est le motion blur, qui ne dispense en aucun cas du filtre anisotrope ...
Le coup du scintillement était dû à un bug dans les filtres anisotropes implémentés jusqu'à récemment chez Nvidia par exemple (ATI n'a jamais eu de Pb à ce niveau).
La configuration dans mon profil
Full HD, 3D, 4K, HDR... : OK --- Fluidité : pas OK ! C'est pour quand à la fin ???
-
Fafa - Administrateur Suppléant de l'Association - Secrétaire Adjoint & Superviseur Forum Univers TV
- Messages: 79747
- Inscription Forum: 14 Aoû 2003 9:50
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fafa.dudu a écrit:Je pensais que l'AA agissait également à l'intérieur des textures.
En multi-sampling, non.
Par contre, dès que tu as +sieurs CG (en SLI ou Crossfire), tu as accès à des modes plus avancés qui eux modifient également à l'intérieur.
- oli2
- Messages: 1038
- Inscription Forum: 09 Oct 2004 19:55
- Localisation: Dijon
Un topic trouvé sur le forum neogaf, qui interessera peut etre les techniciens du forum :
PS3 games list & SPE usages
According to IBM the bulk of the PS3's processing power is located in Cell's SPEs. Without using them games development is very similar to developing a game on a decent specced single processor PC or Mac (so not really difficult at all like some developers claim, funnily those who do not even use the SPEs the porting process, it should then actually be pretty straight foward (with of course the advantage of being able to optimize for a single uniform configuration). PS3 exclusive devs who are using the SPEs claim it's not more difficult to develop for and that it's much easier to develop for than for the PS2. Considering more and more games start to utilize these SPEs I thought it would be interesting to list those games and possibly deduct those which don't.
SPE usage doesn't per se make a good game, neither not using them per se makes a bad game, for example simple games such as distributed on the PSN don't really need that much performance with the exception of Super Stardust HD, which is quite impressive with so many effects and things going on at once. However IMO for games which greatly depend on performance, not using the SPEs IMO don't make these games genuine PS3 games to judge the power of the platform on, but should rather be viewed as far from optimal ports.
Beyond3D Motorstorm interview: "Scott Kirkland: Cell’s SPUs provide a huge amount of processing power. Early adopters tended to bias usage towards either RSX or PPU support (we fall into the latter category). I’m confident that over the coming months, exploitation of this resource will become far more balanced."
PS3 games that are known to use the Cell's SPEs
1) Resistance:Fall of Man
"Animation and calculating collisions between objects are perfect fits, says Hastings. So those are the primary jobs Resistance doles out to the SPEs.."
Source: Spectrum online
2) Ratchet and Clank Future
"We were using the SPUs and that's a key to having a game that runs fast on the PS3, but there were a lot of things that we knew we could improve, and we have been improving them on Ratchet. And even with Ratchet, we're still seeing more and more things we can do; it's kind of like peeling off the layers of an onion."
Source: Gamedaily
3) Motorstorm
"SPU usage is a good example. The progressive development of corresponding debugging and profiling tools made thorough exploitation of this powerful resource quite challenging for the less technically biased members of the team. In the aftermath of MotorStorm, with mature tools at our disposal, we’ve been developing mechanisms to make the PPU and SPU’s power and parallelism far more accessible to our entire team, re-thinking data organization and algorithms in the process. MotorStorm only uses between 15 and 20 percent of available SPU resource, so we’re aiming to achieve a 5 fold increase in SPU performance, which should allow us to do some awesome stuff!"
"Our SPU exploiting systems consist of:
i) Havok physics.
ii) Determination of object visibility.
iii) Concatenation of hierarchies.
iv) Billboard object culling and vertex buffer creation.
v) Updating of particles and vertex buffer creation.
vi) Updating of vehicle dynamics.
vii) Updating of vehicle suspension constraints.
viii) Audio (MultiStream).
ix) Video decoding."
Source: Beyond3D
4) Formula One Championship Edition
"We don't really use the concept of reserving certain SPUs for specific tasks. Instead we employ the concept of prioritized job lists that are executed by the SPUs whenever one is available. We use the SPUs for the following jobs: audio effects, particle system, physics (landscape collision, narrow phase and collision resolution), rain effects (rain droplets and rain splashes) and various render side jobs. The game logic is driven largely by the PPU. We use the SPUs together to collaborate on working through each frame that's displayed by the game. The SPUs are extremely versatile so they can be used to accelerate any in-game system."
The SPUs are heavily involved in the graphics pipeline and do an enormous amount of work to eliminate inefficiency before anything arrives at the PPU and RSX. For example, the SPUs are powerful enough to decompress and check every triangle [polygon] before passing it on to the RSX. Triangles that are facing away from the player, or that are not on the screen can be 'trimmed' away by the SPUs, which hugely reduces the amount of redundant work sent to the RSX. This in turn lets the RSX get on with what it does best--drawing stuff on screen.
The SPUs can also be used to augment the RSX vertex shaders, making far more vertex-heavy tasks possible which is very useful for character animation. Additionally, the SPUs can be used to implement behavior very similar to geometry shaders--F1 CE uses them in this way to render seamless interpolated levels of detail for some scene elements. So in answer to the question "Do the Cell and RSX work together?" the answer is a resounding "Yes," and I think this is one of the real strengths of Playstation 3 that we'll see increasingly exploited by development teams going forward.
Source: Newsweek
5) Super Stardust HD
"We are able to get over 10,000 active objects with physics and collisions and over 75,000 particles simulated and drawn @60fps. That said, we were unable to use all the available processing power from Cell for this game, so for the next game there are still plenty of reserves left"
Source: IGN
6) Heavenly Sword
" In Heavenly Sword, the Cell enables incredible numbers of enemies to be on screen at one time. The trick is that Cell treats entire regiments as a single unit of artificial intelligence when they are at a distance; as they draw closer, Cell gradually divides the army into smaller and smaller groups, so they eventually become individual troops with unique fighting styles and tactics."
"Heavenly Sword is one of the first PS3 games to tap into Cell's true potential. Here are the highlights.
Artificial Intelligence To keep up with the hundreds of on-screen enemies, Cell treats distant armies as a singlular "hive mind." As they approach Nariko, Cell splits their intelligence across squads, and finally, individual troops.
Graphics Wind gusts swirl Nariko's hair and clothes, and bazooka blasts send out showers of dust and rubble. 1080p support is still a question mark, though.
Physics When firing a cannon, Nariko can influence the trajectory of the projectile using the Sixaxis. Ninja Theory claims it needs the Cell to handle these complex calculations."
Source: Gamepro
7) Lair
"We have all of our animations running on the S.P.U.s of the Cell's chip because you couldn't draw armies or basically animate armies of that amount and size without it. And our physics are completely on there. We are also doing fluid dynamics for the first time in a game, as far as I know. Water is not basically a sheet of a base surface, but completely animated and sub-divided, and you actually can direct with it thanks to the Cell. We actually do part of our rendering on the Cell. Simply because it's so powerful, we spent months and months moving more and more systems onto the S.P.U.'s."
"Not a specific S.P.U. Our S.P.U. code works dynamically, so we are not locking up one S.P.U. and saying "OK, you are the A.I. S.P.U., but we instead say, "OK, here are these 15 things including A.I." We run them on the S.P.U., and the code automatically distributes them. And sometimes, yes, A.I. certainly can take up a full S.P.U."
Source: Gamepro
Killzone 2
"In this talk, we will discuss our approach to face this challenge and how we designed a deferred rendering engine that uses multi-sampled anti-aliasing (MSAA). We will give in-depth description of each individual stage of our real-time rendering pipeline and the main ingredients of our lighting, post-processing and data management. We’ll show how we utilize PS3’s SPUs for fast rendering of a large set of primitives, parallel processing of geometry and computation of indirect lighting. We will also describe our optimizations of the lighting and our parallel split (cascaded) shadow map algorithm for faster and stable MSAA output."
Source: Killzoneunit
9) Final Fantasy XIII (uses SPE enabled White Engine)
"The White Engine reportedly uses four of the six developer-available synergistic processing elements (SPEs) of the Cell microprocessor to achieve near-pre-rendered CGI quality in realtime."
Source: Play UK through Wikipedia
10) Gran Turismo 5
11) Warhawk
"Although I would say it’s the sum-total of all of our natural phenomenon in the game. Our clouds, procedural water, atmospheric scattering, terrain, etc. All of this stuff runs in parallel on all 7 SPUs simultaneously every frame – I’m still not sure if the game community is giving enough credit to just how fast the SPUs really are."
Source: PS Blog
12) Untold Legends
13) Uncharted: Drake’s fortune
"Like the PS2 the PS3 is a sophisticated and powerful piece of hardware. Our engineers are working very hard at making specific optimizations to take full advantage of the Cell and its SPU's. However, there is so much depth to this machine, that much like the PS2, you will continue to see developers squeeze more and more out of it over the course of what I am sure is going to be a lengthy life-cycle."
Source: IGN
14) Infamous
"For us, the most exciting part of the PS3 has been the cell processor, the SPUs specifically. In our highest density scenes right now, we are currently using about 30 percent of the SPUs' capabilities--with the SPUs doing lots of heavy lifting for us on rendering, visibility, particle systems, skinning, animation blending, and so on...this with scores of pedestrians, cars, fires, etc., all going on. And the best part? We've not made any significant attempts to even optimize the SPU code. I think it's reasonable to guess we could put 10 times as much stuff on the SPUs and still make our frame budgets. It's really pretty amazing."
Source: Gamespot
15) The Getaway 3 - Tech demo
16) Unreal Tournament 3 - Sony developers helping Epic.
Retail PS3 games confirmed or thought not to be using the Cell's SPEs (correct me if wrong, I will update both lists)
1) Genji: Days of the Blade (Great visuals, mediocre game, confirmed by developer not to be using the SPEs)
2) Half-Life 2: Orange Box (Confirmed by developer)
3) Splinter Cell
4) The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion (Great game, looks better than on XBox 360 combined with reduced loading times, but this mainly due to harddrive caching)
5) Fight Night Round 3 (overall still a good improvement over the XBox 360 version)
6) Full Auto 2: Battlelines (Mediocre, still an improvement over the original and 1080p)
7) Ridge Racer 7(OK game, overall a good improvement over RR6 and 1080p)
Madden NFL 07
9) Madden NFL 08
10) Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas
11) Enchanted Arms
12) F.E.A.R.
13) Sonic the Hedgehog
14) Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07
PS3 games list & SPE usages
According to IBM the bulk of the PS3's processing power is located in Cell's SPEs. Without using them games development is very similar to developing a game on a decent specced single processor PC or Mac (so not really difficult at all like some developers claim, funnily those who do not even use the SPEs the porting process, it should then actually be pretty straight foward (with of course the advantage of being able to optimize for a single uniform configuration). PS3 exclusive devs who are using the SPEs claim it's not more difficult to develop for and that it's much easier to develop for than for the PS2. Considering more and more games start to utilize these SPEs I thought it would be interesting to list those games and possibly deduct those which don't.
SPE usage doesn't per se make a good game, neither not using them per se makes a bad game, for example simple games such as distributed on the PSN don't really need that much performance with the exception of Super Stardust HD, which is quite impressive with so many effects and things going on at once. However IMO for games which greatly depend on performance, not using the SPEs IMO don't make these games genuine PS3 games to judge the power of the platform on, but should rather be viewed as far from optimal ports.
Beyond3D Motorstorm interview: "Scott Kirkland: Cell’s SPUs provide a huge amount of processing power. Early adopters tended to bias usage towards either RSX or PPU support (we fall into the latter category). I’m confident that over the coming months, exploitation of this resource will become far more balanced."
PS3 games that are known to use the Cell's SPEs
1) Resistance:Fall of Man
"Animation and calculating collisions between objects are perfect fits, says Hastings. So those are the primary jobs Resistance doles out to the SPEs.."
Source: Spectrum online
2) Ratchet and Clank Future
"We were using the SPUs and that's a key to having a game that runs fast on the PS3, but there were a lot of things that we knew we could improve, and we have been improving them on Ratchet. And even with Ratchet, we're still seeing more and more things we can do; it's kind of like peeling off the layers of an onion."
Source: Gamedaily
3) Motorstorm
"SPU usage is a good example. The progressive development of corresponding debugging and profiling tools made thorough exploitation of this powerful resource quite challenging for the less technically biased members of the team. In the aftermath of MotorStorm, with mature tools at our disposal, we’ve been developing mechanisms to make the PPU and SPU’s power and parallelism far more accessible to our entire team, re-thinking data organization and algorithms in the process. MotorStorm only uses between 15 and 20 percent of available SPU resource, so we’re aiming to achieve a 5 fold increase in SPU performance, which should allow us to do some awesome stuff!"
"Our SPU exploiting systems consist of:
i) Havok physics.
ii) Determination of object visibility.
iii) Concatenation of hierarchies.
iv) Billboard object culling and vertex buffer creation.
v) Updating of particles and vertex buffer creation.
vi) Updating of vehicle dynamics.
vii) Updating of vehicle suspension constraints.
viii) Audio (MultiStream).
ix) Video decoding."
Source: Beyond3D
4) Formula One Championship Edition
"We don't really use the concept of reserving certain SPUs for specific tasks. Instead we employ the concept of prioritized job lists that are executed by the SPUs whenever one is available. We use the SPUs for the following jobs: audio effects, particle system, physics (landscape collision, narrow phase and collision resolution), rain effects (rain droplets and rain splashes) and various render side jobs. The game logic is driven largely by the PPU. We use the SPUs together to collaborate on working through each frame that's displayed by the game. The SPUs are extremely versatile so they can be used to accelerate any in-game system."
The SPUs are heavily involved in the graphics pipeline and do an enormous amount of work to eliminate inefficiency before anything arrives at the PPU and RSX. For example, the SPUs are powerful enough to decompress and check every triangle [polygon] before passing it on to the RSX. Triangles that are facing away from the player, or that are not on the screen can be 'trimmed' away by the SPUs, which hugely reduces the amount of redundant work sent to the RSX. This in turn lets the RSX get on with what it does best--drawing stuff on screen.
The SPUs can also be used to augment the RSX vertex shaders, making far more vertex-heavy tasks possible which is very useful for character animation. Additionally, the SPUs can be used to implement behavior very similar to geometry shaders--F1 CE uses them in this way to render seamless interpolated levels of detail for some scene elements. So in answer to the question "Do the Cell and RSX work together?" the answer is a resounding "Yes," and I think this is one of the real strengths of Playstation 3 that we'll see increasingly exploited by development teams going forward.
Source: Newsweek
5) Super Stardust HD
"We are able to get over 10,000 active objects with physics and collisions and over 75,000 particles simulated and drawn @60fps. That said, we were unable to use all the available processing power from Cell for this game, so for the next game there are still plenty of reserves left"
Source: IGN
6) Heavenly Sword
" In Heavenly Sword, the Cell enables incredible numbers of enemies to be on screen at one time. The trick is that Cell treats entire regiments as a single unit of artificial intelligence when they are at a distance; as they draw closer, Cell gradually divides the army into smaller and smaller groups, so they eventually become individual troops with unique fighting styles and tactics."
"Heavenly Sword is one of the first PS3 games to tap into Cell's true potential. Here are the highlights.
Artificial Intelligence To keep up with the hundreds of on-screen enemies, Cell treats distant armies as a singlular "hive mind." As they approach Nariko, Cell splits their intelligence across squads, and finally, individual troops.
Graphics Wind gusts swirl Nariko's hair and clothes, and bazooka blasts send out showers of dust and rubble. 1080p support is still a question mark, though.
Physics When firing a cannon, Nariko can influence the trajectory of the projectile using the Sixaxis. Ninja Theory claims it needs the Cell to handle these complex calculations."
Source: Gamepro
7) Lair
"We have all of our animations running on the S.P.U.s of the Cell's chip because you couldn't draw armies or basically animate armies of that amount and size without it. And our physics are completely on there. We are also doing fluid dynamics for the first time in a game, as far as I know. Water is not basically a sheet of a base surface, but completely animated and sub-divided, and you actually can direct with it thanks to the Cell. We actually do part of our rendering on the Cell. Simply because it's so powerful, we spent months and months moving more and more systems onto the S.P.U.'s."
"Not a specific S.P.U. Our S.P.U. code works dynamically, so we are not locking up one S.P.U. and saying "OK, you are the A.I. S.P.U., but we instead say, "OK, here are these 15 things including A.I." We run them on the S.P.U., and the code automatically distributes them. And sometimes, yes, A.I. certainly can take up a full S.P.U."
Source: Gamepro
![8)](https://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
"In this talk, we will discuss our approach to face this challenge and how we designed a deferred rendering engine that uses multi-sampled anti-aliasing (MSAA). We will give in-depth description of each individual stage of our real-time rendering pipeline and the main ingredients of our lighting, post-processing and data management. We’ll show how we utilize PS3’s SPUs for fast rendering of a large set of primitives, parallel processing of geometry and computation of indirect lighting. We will also describe our optimizations of the lighting and our parallel split (cascaded) shadow map algorithm for faster and stable MSAA output."
Source: Killzoneunit
9) Final Fantasy XIII (uses SPE enabled White Engine)
"The White Engine reportedly uses four of the six developer-available synergistic processing elements (SPEs) of the Cell microprocessor to achieve near-pre-rendered CGI quality in realtime."
Source: Play UK through Wikipedia
10) Gran Turismo 5
11) Warhawk
"Although I would say it’s the sum-total of all of our natural phenomenon in the game. Our clouds, procedural water, atmospheric scattering, terrain, etc. All of this stuff runs in parallel on all 7 SPUs simultaneously every frame – I’m still not sure if the game community is giving enough credit to just how fast the SPUs really are."
Source: PS Blog
12) Untold Legends
13) Uncharted: Drake’s fortune
"Like the PS2 the PS3 is a sophisticated and powerful piece of hardware. Our engineers are working very hard at making specific optimizations to take full advantage of the Cell and its SPU's. However, there is so much depth to this machine, that much like the PS2, you will continue to see developers squeeze more and more out of it over the course of what I am sure is going to be a lengthy life-cycle."
Source: IGN
14) Infamous
"For us, the most exciting part of the PS3 has been the cell processor, the SPUs specifically. In our highest density scenes right now, we are currently using about 30 percent of the SPUs' capabilities--with the SPUs doing lots of heavy lifting for us on rendering, visibility, particle systems, skinning, animation blending, and so on...this with scores of pedestrians, cars, fires, etc., all going on. And the best part? We've not made any significant attempts to even optimize the SPU code. I think it's reasonable to guess we could put 10 times as much stuff on the SPUs and still make our frame budgets. It's really pretty amazing."
Source: Gamespot
15) The Getaway 3 - Tech demo
16) Unreal Tournament 3 - Sony developers helping Epic.
Retail PS3 games confirmed or thought not to be using the Cell's SPEs (correct me if wrong, I will update both lists)
1) Genji: Days of the Blade (Great visuals, mediocre game, confirmed by developer not to be using the SPEs)
2) Half-Life 2: Orange Box (Confirmed by developer)
3) Splinter Cell
4) The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion (Great game, looks better than on XBox 360 combined with reduced loading times, but this mainly due to harddrive caching)
5) Fight Night Round 3 (overall still a good improvement over the XBox 360 version)
6) Full Auto 2: Battlelines (Mediocre, still an improvement over the original and 1080p)
7) Ridge Racer 7(OK game, overall a good improvement over RR6 and 1080p)
![8)](https://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
9) Madden NFL 08
10) Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas
11) Enchanted Arms
12) F.E.A.R.
13) Sonic the Hedgehog
14) Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07
- Nobo
- Messages: 10615
- Inscription Forum: 25 Déc 2000 2:00
- Localisation: nice
Mouais, beh quand je vois motorstorm utiliser des SPE et flatout sans SPE, euhhh niveau physique etc collisions nombres d'elements à l'ecran, ya pas photo et pour resistance qui utilise les spe, ca fait sourrire aussi.
Un 1er titre utilisant réellement les spe sera UT avec le moteur 3d à la sauce SPE, ce sera beaucoup plus interressant techniquement parlant.
Un 1er titre utilisant réellement les spe sera UT avec le moteur 3d à la sauce SPE, ce sera beaucoup plus interressant techniquement parlant.
- cfc
- Messages: 1853
- Inscription Forum: 25 Mai 2005 0:24
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